Well said, @Terri ! I never needed any role models in my life other than my parents. Seeing Hillary as a potential role model is already a problem in and of itself.
Thank you for your thoughts, @Terri. Obviously I have a much higher opinion of Hillary than you, but I can see your points and appreciate your frankness.
Hillary is almost 70 years old. I think we can agree that it’s always been tough for women to break the glass ceiling, and 30 or 40 years ago it was much tougher than today. Whether Hillary stayed with Bill for pure career reason I don’t know, and it’s entirely their own private matter. For me I give points to people who stick to their marriages through thick and thin. It’s not easy. Even if Hillary stayed with Bill for nothing but career reason, that’s fine with me. Plenty of men do the same and no one fault them for it.
My older girl is already keenly aware of what boys do and what girls do. I am surprised she picked up the ever so subtle gender hints we so pervasively embed in our culture. When I hear she said things “boys play football” and “girls dance”, a tiny part of me died because to me, her world just gets a little smaller. We don’t have enough women programmers. We hardly have any women CEO’s. And we have zero women president. Kids see what other people like them do to see what’s possible for them. Parents can talk all day long, but it never became “real” unless they see real world example.
We don’t have enough women programmers
Why do we have to get woman to work in IT? Compare to guys, girls/women are less interested in Math, critical thinking. It’s the truth. I’ve worked with great woman engineers, but majority of the woman i know is bad in math and not interested in computer. India is better, but US the woman just bad in Math. Let’s not make everything about race/sex and let’s make it about who is the BEST fit for the job…
Like if you ask me to become a PR, i can’t, my personality and skill doesn’t fit that job.
I have not seen any scientific evidence the female brain is worse in math than males. If you find such study let me know.
If it’s not due to nature that means it’s due to nurture. Maybe our culture and school system actively or inactively discourages young girls to take up math? Maybe they have math teachers like you who think girls are just not good at math? Maybe they don’t see women programmers and don’t see themselves in that career? Maybe our culture don’t reward girls for their math geekiness the same way we reward how they look?
You don’t need scientific evidence, you talk to the girls you know and try starting a conversasion about computers and math, and they’ll go away. They are just not interested, dudes/ geeks will talk all day. Of course, there’s still some and doing very well and really into tech. I’m just saying this is the experience i have, i do not get that many resume from woman that apply . Indian woman are better and more in quantity, but not woman americans born here. The ratios men vs woman interested in studying math, algorithm/data structures is 3 to 1 at least when the time i study computer science in college.
I’m not sexist , it’s just the TRUTH, ask woman in this board if they love math?
Uh, a porn movie skit broke out with Bill, remember???
I am not disputing the outcome. I am disputing the reason why that comes about. I don’t believe the female brain is less interested in math or worse in math than male brain. Maybe it is. I just have never seen any scientific evidence.
So I look for social reasons, and I see tons of biases.
Found this on the net that is encouraging…
Great article from Mr.8. This quote is very illuminating and explain why @dioworld saw more female engineers from India:
“If you [ask] a young girl, ‘what do you want to do?’ most don’t know what they want to do, what they enjoy, what they’re going to be really good at,” Charles said. That makes it easy to absorb stereotypes,” according to Charles, as opposed to in poorer countries where girls are encouraged to at least try math because a STEM career pays better and will increase the family’s coffers.
Oh Great OB1,
Here is another article (dated) from The Farm no less but interesting nevertheless…
Geez, you want us to read a goddamn academic paper past midnight?
I am an engineer and i love math and science.
My mother studied math at college and taught math to students.
My daughter loves math and want to study CS at college.
I am not from India.
Most of my female friends are engineers.
My mother always emphasized how important math was when i was young and encouraged me to study STEM. I went to science/math magnet school and met winderful female friends who became engineers and scientist. I met many bright female engineers in SV.
My daughter used to think engineering was boring stuff but when i encouraged her to try different things, she found how fun it would be.
Setting aside whether Hillary is a good role model or not to a girl, it is clear that stereotyping on one group put them in disadvantageous position. As a person, who had to fight against such stereotypes almost throughout the life, i know it by heart.
This is what happen now. Everyone is so sensitive.
Read my comments. I say i don’t care man/woman/race as long as BEST for the job
The experience and resume is that numbers are actual man is more than woman.
is not about woman not capable, but i’m saying more woman does not like math than man. Number of these geeks/gurus/hackers are male, they just into it more, Go to tech expos, Normally numbers of male are more into learning those technology. woman do too, but i say it’s the NUMBER. no one is preventing woman from liking math/tech, it’s the NUMBER and majority of my female friend, do not have those GEEK passion
I work with great woman engineers. now people under these times are so sensitive about race, gender.
ADMIN, please remove my account from this board.
I’m not a sexist now makes me seem like a sexist, this is what’s happening to this country. OVERSENSITIVE
How was it??? Enthralling and full of data porn???
California has diverged sharply from the rest of the nation in recent years. And, we will lose electoral votes in the 2020 census. One party rule here is forcing conservatives to leave - which will strengthen the hand of red states in the electoral college. Also, the population is aging and people as a general rule get more conservative as they age. I think your 10 yeas is closer to 30.
Let’s settle on 20. I can live with 20.
It appears that the liberals can’t accept the conservatives. Ain’t diversity good? Or some diversity is good, some are bad?
In Singapore, girls do like Maths and CS but in different segment. There are more female accountants and MIS (management info system) professionals. Males prefer to attend Computer Engineering courses, females prefer Computer Science courses.
Yup, is almost like a different nation. Perhaps, Californians should vote to leave USA.
I’m pretty sure the testosterone does change things. I remember reading about a woman who took hormone therapy to trans, and she said that she found that physics became much more interesting to her with the hormones.
I love math, and I’m a programmer. But I don’t give a sh*t at all how many girls go into software engineering. I think people should do what they love, and that we need to acknowledge that women and men are different. If girls love more social endeavors then go for it. As an major introvert, I’m perfectly happy talking to a computer–doing sales would give me a heart attack. My daughter, on the other hand, can’t stop talking. If she’s like this when she’s 18, I don’t think being holed up with a computer would be a good match for her.
The biggest reason that women have a harder time becoming a CEO is the family issue. We get pregnant, we give birth, and we should be breastfeeding if the body allows as it’s healthier both mom and kids. We get attached to the babies that way. A lot of women stay home after that because they feel the call of motherhood–they hate leaving the baby at a daycare. That sets you on a path on non-employment.
What sucks is being told by your husband that if he were to interview someone like me, he wouldn’t recommend hiring me because after my time off, I haven’t learned enough programming languages in the last 10 years. Maybe he’s right, but that’s where the problem is then. On the other hand, a friend of mine who is a CEO did say that he’d readily hire me if I just learned a new language and platform and did something as simply as write an app to display picture on my iphone–just show him you can still learn. But if the door is closed after you take time off for motherhood, it’s a problem.
I know at least two women who became professors who were very concerned about having kids during the tenure period. Women simply don’t trust the clock to really stop when you have a kid during tenure, especially when they’re being judged by a panel of men. The first one had two kids during her PHD–she said that was perfect because there wasn’t a clock, and her professor was supportive. Her husband stayed home with the kids during the day and worked nights as a waiter. The second one waited until after she got tenure. What was ironic is that the second one was very much a feminist and was involved in advocacy work during college. So for her to admit to me that she was afraid to have kids until after tenure made me really sad–obviously as a woman and a feminist, she knew the clock should stop and she wanted it to stop, but she was afraid to find out if it would.
The other problem is that someone has to be there for child sick days. If the husband and wife are willing to split that, great, BUT, not all husbands are (nanomug posted in another thread about a wife she worked with whose husband wouldn’t take the day off when she had a deadline that day–I think that happens more often than we might think). So that means hiring a sick nanny which sometime makes the mom feel replaced. Women have to really have a positive sense of self for work-motherhood balance. Or family kicks in, and that’s great for those who live near a mother/MIL that they trust.
I think this article is interesting: CEO of Pepsi says “I don’t think women can have it all.”:
And honestly, now that I’m a mom, I agree with her. I really appreciate her coming out and saying it. It needs to be said. Even fathers don’t get it all–my husband would love to stay home with the kids, but he’s the one with the job, so he can’t. I think it bothers him too.
I absolutely believe that girls should view any job as available to them. I agree that they should never be viewed by a teacher as less capable to in learning science, math, and engineering, and honestly, my teachers were all very supportive of me 25 years ago. I even had a professor who I had met through the high school math contest that he ran and later took a university class from in 12th grade, take me aside and suggest that I get a PHD in math because there weren’t enough women professors. That was a huge compliment! Unfortunately, I didn’t think I wanted to teach (now, I actually wish I’d done what he said). Beyond that, though, I think we should let girls explore all the possibilities AND that we really should be counseling girls on which careers are easier to do part time, or easier to restart after having kids. Unlike me, many girls know that they want to have kids when they are deciding on college–it would be helpful to explain how easy it will be for them to take time off with the kids and jump back into the game.