We Are in Bear Market

If this is true, I think they are putting final nails in the coffin ! It is fun now.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-reserve-not-likely-swayed-by-recent-stock-market-declines-1542747329

Market turbulence is leading some investors to call on the Federal Reserve to halt its campaign of interest rate increases, but the selloff in stocks and corporate bonds that accelerated Tuesday is unlikely to stop the central bank from raising rates when it meets again next month.

Fed officials have signaled in recent days they plan to proceed with another quarter percentage point increase in their benchmark short-term interest rate when they meet Dec. 19, marking their fourth rate increase this year. The market pullback does underscore however the uncertain outlook for what the Fed will do after that.

Fed officials are divided over how many times the central bank will raise rates next year. Projections released after the Fed’s meeting in September showed officials are roughly equally split over whether the economy will require two, three or four rate rises next year.

Officials will update their projections when they meet in December. Some officials could reduce their estimates for the number of rate increases required next year if the market rout continues, or if their expectations for growth or inflation next year recede.

For the Fed to change its December plan, the market selloff would likely need to signal some broader deterioration in the U.S. outlook. Recent economic data shows few signs of a slowdown outside of the rate-sensitive housing sector. A continued run of strong labor-market data, in particular, would make it difficult for the Fed to justify a pause.

“Interest rates are still very low. We’ve raised them, but they are still at a very low level,” said New York Fed President John Williams on Monday. He reiterated the Fed’s plans to pursue a “gradual path” of rate rises.

Complicating matters for the Fed is the fact that President Donald Trump has been calling on the central bank to halt interest rate increases. Some investors might interpret a central bank decision to stop now as a bend to political pressure, which would hurt the Fed’s inflation-fighting credibility.

Mr. Trump continued his pressure campaign on Tuesday. “I’d like to see the Fed with a lower interest rate,” he told reporters outside the White House. “We have much more of a Fed problem than we have a problem with anyone else.” A Fed spokeswoman declined to comment.

Life goal: survive til next year. :smile:

Wiped-Out Hedge Fund Manager Confessed His Losses on YouTube

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/hedge-fund-s-accounts-liquidated-amid-energy-market-volatility

Despite slowing growth, the Fed remains on track for a December rate hike. The reasoning is simple – even a substantial slowdown in growth from the pace of recent quarters leaves the US economy operating at a pace that exceeds the Fed’s estimates of potential growth.

https://blogs.uoregon.edu/timduyfedwatch/2018/11/16/still-on-track-to-raise-rates/

I continue to believe that this is more like 1987 than 1929 or 2008. The market was already ahead of itself due to years of QE and ZIRP and got further ahead of itself since Trump’s election. The economy will be fine.

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I was thinking yesterday exactly the same 1987 after 1980 real estate downturn. History repeats.

What happen in 1987, other than infamous Black Monday - Monday, October 19, 1987?
RE is ok? Economy is ok? Plenty of job, no increased in unemployment?

1987 40% drop in a couple of months

2700 August high down to 1700

Yes, plenty of jobs and too much inflation. Please remember 1975 was start of technology revolution computer era .

IIRC, 1980 was big RE down turn like 2008. Before 1987, instead of reducing fed rate, they increased fed rate to combat inflation that resulted crash 1987-1989.

But those were peak period of mortgage rate around 18%

Need to check exact sequence of events.

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To make sure I understand your hypothesis, you are suggesting that stocks will crash but economy will largely be fine? I don’t have the full context of 1987.

Over sold re-bounce today. Praying it would morph into a Santa Claus rally next week. Fingers crossed.

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Similarities

  1. 1980 was big RE recession similar to 2008 recession

  2. 1987-89 The crash began in Hong Kong and spread west to Europe, hitting the United States after other markets had already sustained significant declines.

  3. In late 1985 and early 1986, the United States economy shifted from a rapid recovery from the early 1980s recession to a slower expansion, resulting in a brief “soft landing” period as the economy slowed and inflation dropped.

  4. Further financial uncertainty may have resulted from the collapse of OPEC in early 1986, which led to a crude oil price decrease of more than 50% by mid-1986

  5. Many feared that the crash would trigger a recession. Instead, the fallout from the crash turned out to be surprisingly small. (this is current hope !)

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1987 crash was preceded by a bunch of hostile takeovers and Wall street playing with portfolio insurance products. It’s more to do with Wall street than broader economy. Economy recovered pretty quickly but people’s confidence in investments got shattered after seeing such a crazy drop in a day.

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Yes, now also economy is doing good, all companies are doing good, but wall street is going down. But, 1987 took until 1989 to recover, not immediately.

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There will a rate hike in December. If Fed slams the break now they will have a hard time starting on it again. They need to build the dry powder and the more they can build the better position they will be in to handle to any future economic downturns (cyclical or otherwise).

Good point :grinning: take so long :pleading_face:

I personally think the stock market now is purely reacting to China trade. Wall street always tries to proactively price in the risk of a worst case scenario. So they brought down most stocks with China exposure. Now that they are done with it, they will start watching how realistic their fears are and adjust accordingly. If you see from pure American point of view, trade war with China is good for the US and bad for China. I think lot of manufacturing jobs will move back to the US and there will be lot of automation in those factories. China will be set back by a few years from a technological point of view. It needs to be seen if China can emerge out of it as a dominant country or not.

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The issue is China’s economy itself going down.

Example: US and China are biggest consumers of oil consumption. US is fine as such, but Chinese imports are reduced, glut in cars manufacturing and oil consumption that results oil price drop.

Trump added tariff at China’s very inopportune time. Like every country, Their prime objective is to first bring up its economy, protect its people and then comes to foreign relationships. China will not have any leverage to consider any increase in spending or mutual acceptance.

Entire world is already in economic reduction/failures, Euro-Brexit, Japan, Emerging market. So far, US was only doing great, mainly with tax incentive stimulated economy. Otherwise, we would have been like in after 2016.

I expected this will hit, but not realized it is Oct 2018 start.

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We don’t care anymore. Our target for this year on our clients policies hit the 12%-16% range. And they didn’t risk, nor lose their principal at all.

Speaking of achievements:

Now, he has to grapple with an unknown: a stock market that has recently slipped, partly due to the president’s own policies. While gross domestic product has improved, market watchers appear disappointed with the prospects for earnings growth . Interest rate hikes from a Federal Reserve chairman the president appointed — and routinely criticizes — along with a widening trade war with China have spooked investors.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/trump-celebrated-the-stock-market-surge-in-2017-but-hes-been-quiet-about-this-years-decline/ar-BBP0FID?ocid=spartanntp

3 of the FAANG recovered a bit today, except Apple and Netflix.

Max drawdown from peak as of today:

Facebook: 38%
Apple: 24%
Amazon: 26%
Netflix: 38%
Google: 19%

So Netflix is just as bad as Facebook and yet no one talked about it. Google is the least bad performer.

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